dieastra | "Doctor" and "baby" without noun markers

I just posted this entry in the community

linguaphiles but I thought I put it into here as well, as I know you all love a good discussion once in a while and maybe we all learn something new by it! If you want to check the replies in the comm, the entry is here: http://linguaphiles.livejournal.com/5988669.html

Hi, I'm from Germany and I am wondering about something that I repeatedly encounter recently in the British TV series "Call the midwife" (which is set in London in the 1950s if that is important).

I am pharaphrasing here, but there are often sentences spoken by the nurses and sisters which go like "I'll call doctor and he'll check whether baby is okay."

For me this sounds odd, as I would say "I call THE doctor so he can make sure YOUR baby is okay." Why are there no noun markers with those two specific words? Are there other words like that? You would not do this with "girl" or "boy" would you?

And on a side note, I also find it a bit odd that in the English language men for example apparently refer to their wife as just "the wife" and not proudly "my wife" as it is in Germany. It seems a bit impersonal. Do they also say "the boy" instead of "my boy"?

I am always trying to improve my English so I am musing about these things and why there is this difference. Many thanks for your help!

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Um -- "Little Women" is a book published in 1868 and 1869. Every movie with that title is based on the book. I'm emphasising this because you have to look at the original publication context to understand the titling environment.

In 19th century America, the phrase "Little Women" (especially as used by a female author who was a model of female independence) emphasised the fact that, although most of the females in the book, although they are young girls, they are functioning more as small adults rather than as children. The book is essentially a coming-of-age story, and was intended as a children's book for a female audience.

The guy on the forum who's calling his wife "the wife" might be joking, but it's a joke that has a layer of automatic, unrecognised sexism to it. His wife might be posting on Ravelry about how she doesn't tell her husband how much she spends on her hobby -- but she would not be calling him "the husband" as if he were an object.

I never read the book though, that's why I referred to the movie. It was just the first that came to mind when you said "Little woman". I had a time where I watched everything with Katerine Hepburn I could get my hands on, and so came about this, and I loved it. I just looked it up on IMDB and learnt that this is only the first book of a trilogy. Gotta learn something new every day!

I think, back in that time, children generally were little adults. If you look at the clothes etc. they wore. It was only in the 1950s or so when teenage culture did start, with own fashion and music etc. especially made for them.

There's some debate as to when the modern concept of childhood started: it's definitely recent. Through most of history (and, it's assumed, pre-history), children were expected to start contributing to the functions of the household as soon as they were physically able to: in other words, as soon as they could walk and understand instructions. The exception, of course, was the children of the wealthy classes, as soon as wealthy classes came into existence.

Moreover, this wasn't regarded as a bad thing; if you've read, for example, the Little House books, they're full of the intense pride that children had at being contributing members -- acquiring skills and being given responsibilities.

I think the current historical theory is that childhood was just beginning to be regarded as a separate phase, something to be recognised and regarded with sentiment, in the 19th century. (Peter Pan is a good illustration of this.) The extension of effective childhood into the teens is even more recent -- as you say, the 50s and 60s in the US, at least partly because of the baby boom and the backlash against the pressure of WWII, which sent a hell of a lot of teenagers into battle. With that over, the new prosperity basically meant that everyone (well, everyone who was white and middle-class in the US) could have an extended childhood, comparatively free from responsibilities and expectations, of the sort formerly only available to the very wealthy.

Now it's been extended even farther: I swear the wealthy never grow up at all, and an appalling percentage of people in their twenties try not to do so, either! It puzzles me: I loved reaching adulthood. OTOH, I was raised in a family where I started being given simple chores by the time I was 7, and I was praised when I showed maturity and was rewarded with extra freedoms and respect each time I demonstrated my capacity to handle responsibility. Since I really liked being praised and rewarded, it worked very well for me!

Very off topic, but I just noticed your icon and had a giggle. Brilliant! (Said by an American with British experience.)

Can you explain it to me by any chance? I don't seem to get the joke...

First, his hand is making the symbol that a priest or, more notably, the Pope makes when he offers an official blessing. Look up a video of the Pope and you'll see it.

Second, in America, "God is my Pilot" or "...my Co-pilot" used to be popular bumper stickers on cars. I still see them from time to time.

Perhaps a bit in questionable taste if you're speaking to a devout Catholic, but otherwise very funny. :)

Ah! I thought it was something British, since you specifically mentioned having British knowledge. B. who is making these icons is American too, though.

Thank you very much for explaining, those were definitely too subtle for me resp. I wouldn't know the car bumper sticker.

I was raised in the GDR, I am an Atheist ;)

The British comment had to do with my use of the word "brilliant", if I remember correctly, which nobody in the US would typically say. The majority of my friends all live in England, where I have visited.

As a humble and grateful Christian, because God has proved himself to me over a lifetime of experiences, you ought to ask Him if He's really out there. The response might surprise you! :)

You have the BEST discussions! I want to come to Dresden to meet you and see your homeland. (It will be on my wish list.) It's a shame we didn't know to look each other up at Avalon. I think we'd have had a blast together.

BTW, I'm still thinking of places to take Jack and the Team on their leave as they tour my home turf.

I hadn't known brilliant was a typical British word. We use it in Germany as well, but with different spelling - just brillant. I always have to think to not do it wrong!

I think believing has everything to do with how you grow up. What you get taught as a child. If you grow up like this, and everyone around you is the same, of course it comes very natural to you. But I just can't understand how someone can change something so important later in his life. I recently read an article about a man who fell in love with a Turkish woman living in Germany (and she with him). She stated outright that if he wanted to marry her, he needs to become a moslem. And so he did, just like that. How can you change from believing into one God to another in the split of a second? I don't get that.

And that's why I cannot see me changing something so importantly. It's too late for that. That does not mean that I still can live in a Christian way as I of course believe in treating others the way I want to be treated. This should be universal law, no matter which God.

I met a few people at Avalon, do you remember Su from Jackfic, the one who wrote all the shipping stories? Also I bumped into a girl from the MacGyver forum, by accident on the street. It led to the last wonderful evening in the pub, where I met Paya and we became friends.

If you ever make it over here, I'd love to show you around! In the meantime, yes, please show Jack and the team around! I'd really love to see those pictures.

Do you know this journal? She is more of an Atlantis fan and makes funny pictures with John and Rodney, here is the latest installment: http://sgamadison.livejournal.com/

I always love discussions with you, you know your stuff so well and I always learn something! This is something you can't have at Tumblr for example. Only on LJ.

I'm not quite sure what is cause and effect in recent generations not seeming to grow up. I read an article in the newspaper about this also. Previous generations already had married and several children at the age people from today still search for a good job, and go from one internship to the next. So how are they supposed to start a family, if they don't know where they will be in half a year? That must be very unsettling.

There seems also to be a new understanding that while a job is necessary and should be fulfilling, it is not the only thing in the world to live for and time spent with families and friends is just as important.

Oddly, I never wanted to be older than I actually was. I never had this "Once I turned this age I can do these things". I never was interested in going out or staying out late, so no trouble with my parents there ;)

"Doctor" and "baby" without noun markers

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