"Doctor" and "baby" without noun markers
Feb. 13th, 2014 06:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I just posted this entry in the community
linguaphiles but I thought I put it into here as well, as I know you all love a good discussion once in a while and maybe we all learn something new by it! If you want to check the replies in the comm, the entry is here: http://linguaphiles.livejournal.com/5988669.html
Hi, I'm from Germany and I am wondering about something that I repeatedly encounter recently in the British TV series "Call the midwife" (which is set in London in the 1950s if that is important).
I am pharaphrasing here, but there are often sentences spoken by the nurses and sisters which go like "I'll call doctor and he'll check whether baby is okay."
For me this sounds odd, as I would say "I call THE doctor so he can make sure YOUR baby is okay." Why are there no noun markers with those two specific words? Are there other words like that? You would not do this with "girl" or "boy" would you?
And on a side note, I also find it a bit odd that in the English language men for example apparently refer to their wife as just "the wife" and not proudly "my wife" as it is in Germany. It seems a bit impersonal. Do they also say "the boy" instead of "my boy"?
I am always trying to improve my English so I am musing about these things and why there is this difference. Many thanks for your help!
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Hi, I'm from Germany and I am wondering about something that I repeatedly encounter recently in the British TV series "Call the midwife" (which is set in London in the 1950s if that is important).
I am pharaphrasing here, but there are often sentences spoken by the nurses and sisters which go like "I'll call doctor and he'll check whether baby is okay."
For me this sounds odd, as I would say "I call THE doctor so he can make sure YOUR baby is okay." Why are there no noun markers with those two specific words? Are there other words like that? You would not do this with "girl" or "boy" would you?
And on a side note, I also find it a bit odd that in the English language men for example apparently refer to their wife as just "the wife" and not proudly "my wife" as it is in Germany. It seems a bit impersonal. Do they also say "the boy" instead of "my boy"?
I am always trying to improve my English so I am musing about these things and why there is this difference. Many thanks for your help!
no subject
Date: 2014-02-13 05:35 pm (UTC)It's just a variation, people might just as well say 'the' doctor or 'my' wife. It's simply a way of putting it, neither wrong nor right nor weird.
'The doctor' is more impersonal than simply 'doctor', because in the latter case 'doctor' replaces the name, suggesting that everybody present knows him/her and knows who is being fetched. However, it's a form less likely to be used by people who are aware of their grammar and their appearance (unless they want to create an air of intimacy and familiarity, as, for instance, in a hospital, as a means to help people stay calm).
The kids frequently refer to me as 'teacher', rather than 'the teacher', as in "Go ask Teacher" or "Teacher said...", and when everybody present knows whose family is being discussed, we may say "I've spoken with Mom" rather than "I've spoken with his/her mom"
(Remember the song 'be prepared' from Disney's "Lion King"? Scar sings 'just listen to teacher')
Edit: The same goes for 'the wife' vs 'my wife'. The former implies familiarity (even when talking to a stranger), plus: everybody knows you're going to go home to your wife and not someone else's; so, technically, 'my wife' is redundant (in most cases).
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Date: 2014-02-13 06:11 pm (UTC)Have a look at my other post, I had a teacher reply there as well and that she uses "Mom" and "Dad" to make it easier and also not always the parents share the same name as the kids. Makes sense!
In "Glee" they shorten the names of the teachers though. Instead of "Mr. Shuster" they say "Mr. Shu" in endearment. You are the only teacher to you class, right? Teaching all subjects?
I'm afraid I never watched "Lion King"... I don't like the new computer movies, I preferred more the old drawing style.
everybody knows you're going to go home to your wife and not someone else's; so, technically, 'my wife' is redundant (in most cases).
That's true in English but as you know in German both would be "Frau" and then you need to distinguish.
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Date: 2014-02-13 07:28 pm (UTC)I teach all subjects except for languages other than English, woodwork, handwork, Eurythmy, orchestra/recorder, and movement/P.E. (although this year I teach movement, too).
But, if you think about it, in German the term 'Frau' is short for 'Ehefrau'. So if Germans were accustomed to using the terms Ehefrau/Ehemann rather than Frau/Mann, then perhaps our language would have developed towards omitting the 'my' as well. Something to ponder, isn't it? My dad uses phrases like 'Die Gattin ruft', in which case he doesn't need to add 'my' as that would be redundant.
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Date: 2014-02-14 02:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-14 07:20 am (UTC)I'm from Eastern Germany, the first Disney movie I ever saw was "Arielle" on video and then we went to the cinema for "Beauty and the Beast" (and yes, I know they used computer there as well but it was way more subtle) and also some of the old ones like "Jungle Book".
And I also never watched all the real computer movies, like "Toy story" or "Ice Age". The only exception was "Shrek" which I loved.
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Date: 2014-02-13 05:44 pm (UTC)"I'll call doctor and he'll check whether baby is okay"--that does sound odd! It's certainly not a construction we'd use in modern-day America. Maybe it's a particular feature of that time period, or reflects the social class of the person speaking? Perhaps our UK friends might have more insight.
That being said, sometimes people here in modern-day US of A DO use "baby" without the article. It's supposed to be cutesy, I think, but it comes off as cloying to me. It's often found in advertising, as in, "While you're shopping our store, don't forget to visit our children's department to pick up a special gift for baby!" Ugh.
I've heard "the wife" used like you describe, and depending on how it's used, it can be used to to convey affection, exasperation, or just as a descriptor. It could be that the person is being cold and impersonal, but not necessarily so. It depends on the context. Interestingly, referring to your child as "the boy" seems much colder, and I think would be less likely to pop up in casual conversation as "the wife".
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Date: 2014-02-13 06:52 pm (UTC)Apparently people like teachers also use it with just referring to "Mom" when talking to a child, or the kids just say "Teacher". It is a bit odd though. In "Glee" they say "Mr. Shu" as an endearment for "Mr. Shuster".
As for "the wife" most say that it's usually said in joke?
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Date: 2014-02-13 05:55 pm (UTC)No idea why; it's just the way they work.
"The wife" is definitely more informal usage, suitable for more colloquial settings, and often used slightly ironically these days. Only a very newly-wed man would draw attention to the fact by saying "my wife" proudly!
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:39 pm (UTC)I certainly learnt a lot.
I stumbled first about "the wife" in an action figure forum where someone said that she should rather not find out how much money he spends on his figures. Maybe it was said in jest but if not it makes me rather sad, that he can't share what apparently is important for him. Naturally, everyone there assumed I was a boy as well ;)
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Date: 2014-02-13 06:21 pm (UTC)I once had to proofread an article that was Canadian English and I almost went crazy because they use almost all US English but not always and I had to work out the spelling that was not American.
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Date: 2014-02-14 03:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-14 04:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-22 07:31 pm (UTC)Oi, that sounds difficult. I guess my posts are all over the place with BE and AE as well. I used to speak AE, since I learnt it all with "Stargate", but now that I also watch British shows and have become a John Barrowman fan, I adopt a lot of words he often uses... like "snogging", when I used that on Gateworld once everyone laughed at me and I did not know why ;) I mean, yes, I know the differencies between trousers and pants and cinema and movie theatre, but there is so much more outside.
But as long as we all understand each other! It's not my fault the languages have seperated so much. I'll be careful to not mix up rubber and eraser ;)
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-22 07:57 pm (UTC)Do you know that suspenders are something entirely different in the UK? Apparently there once was a discussion about Captain Jack Harkness and a lot of confusion, because the Americans referred to his suspenders, which are in the UK called braces, while we all know what braces are in the US... the things teenagers wear in their mouths.
And suspenders in the UK are this: http://www.orchidfashionboutique.co.uk/144-374-productlist/gossard-superboost-lace-suspender-rouge.jpg
Now imagine Captain Jack with that ;) Although, as far as we know him, he even might wear it.
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Date: 2014-02-13 07:27 pm (UTC)In the southern US, "the wife" is very informal or derogatory. That is especially so when referring to one's children as "the boy" or "the girl". In general, it is considered to be a bit rude. However, people will also substitute "Boy" or "Girl" for a proper name as a term of endearment.
I have only heard "Doctor" or "Teacher" used in British English. I grew up in the 1950's and that is definitely not something that was done in the US. It would have been considered extremely rude not to use a formal title and full last name - especially in the medical profession. Even the nurses went by "Nurse Jones". Respect used to be important in language. Alas, it is no more.
Fun, eh? ;)
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:26 pm (UTC)Miss O. sounds rather cute!
I stumbled first about "the wife" in an action figure forum where someone said that she should rather not find out how much money he spends on his figures. Maybe it was said in jest but if not it makes me rather sad, that he can't share what apparently is important for him. Naturally, everyone there assumed I was a boy as well ;)
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:58 pm (UTC)Great discussion!
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Date: 2014-02-22 08:05 pm (UTC)I only got suspicious when they discussed wanting to build an army of Jaffa figures and wanted space-ships and doing fights, and when they commented on the size of the boobs of the Sam Carter figure ;)
I don't have any experience with relationships whatsoever, and can do what pleases me without asking anyone, but I think the key would be having a box with money each contributes to, which goes for the rent of the apartment or whatever else bill has to be paid, but everyone also should have an ammount for themselves, which they can spend as they want, without having to answer any quesstion. Like pocket money for children.
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:23 pm (UTC)I got quite a response over in that community I asked, and many said that it was used back then but nowadays not so much anymore.
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Date: 2014-02-22 08:01 pm (UTC)But I love them all to bits and everything, the setting and the clothes and all. It feels so "real", with the ordinary women looking like ordinary women. In American shows, everyone has to look like a model ;)
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Date: 2014-02-22 08:11 pm (UTC)And what I especially don't understand - how often do we read about an actress who has to eat herself fat for a certain role, and afterwards has to lose it all again. I don't think that is very healthy, and why not use an actress who already is the right size for the role? There must be some somewhere?
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Date: 2014-02-13 08:59 pm (UTC)But this whole thing totally reminded me of how oddly article use in Germany differs between Southern and Northern parts of the country. I moved from Hamburg to Stuttgart a year and a half ago and it was so odd to me that everyone would refer to other people as 'der Hans' or 'die Lisa' or whatever. Their use of articles is really very extensive. :D
As for addressing teachers, I worked in three different preschools in the last three years and in all of them I got addressed differently. In the first they said 'Frau Nachname' (according to the head teacher that was because they wanted the parents not to address the teachers by first name, which they apparently did when the children were calling them by their first names), in the second one they said just my first name and now it's the Polish equivalent of Frau and my first name. Or just Frau when they just want to ask something. Basically 'excuse me Miss', which was very odd for me at first because in Germany we would obviously only use 'entschuldigen Sie' when we want someone's attention, but I think in English it's more common.
Heee, language discussions are fun. :D
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:00 pm (UTC)And yeah, we say "der" and "die" with every name in Saxony as well ;)
Frau and first name does sound odd for me though! But yeah, language discussions and learning about other countries is always fun!
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Date: 2014-02-14 12:05 am (UTC)"The wife" versus "my wife": in the US, this is common amongst white men of an older generation. It was regarded as slightly sexist and patronizing starting in the 1970s and 80s, and is now extremely sexist. I don't think it has that connotation in the UK; the very popular blog "The Wife In Space" is definitely not condescending.
Another term older men will use for their wives is "the little woman". This is also sexist and patronizing, and really annoys any woman under the age of 60 or 70.
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Date: 2014-02-22 06:56 pm (UTC)I stumbled first about "the wife" in an action figure forum where someone said that she should rather not find out how much money he spends on his figures. Maybe it was said in jest but if not it makes me rather sad, that he can't share what apparently is important for him. Naturally, everyone there assumed I was a boy as well ;)
And from the discussion I learnt the new term "her indoors" as well. Only to be used jokingly of course.
Is this what the movie title "Little women" actually means? I always thought it was because they were not full grown women yet.
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:10 pm (UTC)In 19th century America, the phrase "Little Women" (especially as used by a female author who was a model of female independence) emphasised the fact that, although most of the females in the book, although they are young girls, they are functioning more as small adults rather than as children. The book is essentially a coming-of-age story, and was intended as a children's book for a female audience.
The guy on the forum who's calling his wife "the wife" might be joking, but it's a joke that has a layer of automatic, unrecognised sexism to it. His wife might be posting on Ravelry about how she doesn't tell her husband how much she spends on her hobby -- but she would not be calling him "the husband" as if he were an object.
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Date: 2014-02-22 07:21 pm (UTC)I think, back in that time, children generally were little adults. If you look at the clothes etc. they wore. It was only in the 1950s or so when teenage culture did start, with own fashion and music etc. especially made for them.
yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-22 07:51 pm (UTC)Moreover, this wasn't regarded as a bad thing; if you've read, for example, the Little House books, they're full of the intense pride that children had at being contributing members -- acquiring skills and being given responsibilities.
I think the current historical theory is that childhood was just beginning to be regarded as a separate phase, something to be recognised and regarded with sentiment, in the 19th century. (Peter Pan is a good illustration of this.) The extension of effective childhood into the teens is even more recent -- as you say, the 50s and 60s in the US, at least partly because of the baby boom and the backlash against the pressure of WWII, which sent a hell of a lot of teenagers into battle. With that over, the new prosperity basically meant that everyone (well, everyone who was white and middle-class in the US) could have an extended childhood, comparatively free from responsibilities and expectations, of the sort formerly only available to the very wealthy.
Now it's been extended even farther: I swear the wealthy never grow up at all, and an appalling percentage of people in their twenties try not to do so, either! It puzzles me: I loved reaching adulthood. OTOH, I was raised in a family where I started being given simple chores by the time I was 7, and I was praised when I showed maturity and was rewarded with extra freedoms and respect each time I demonstrated my capacity to handle responsibility. Since I really liked being praised and rewarded, it worked very well for me!
Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-22 08:04 pm (UTC)Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-27 10:39 pm (UTC)Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-27 11:30 pm (UTC)Second, in America, "God is my Pilot" or "...my Co-pilot" used to be popular bumper stickers on cars. I still see them from time to time.
Perhaps a bit in questionable taste if you're speaking to a devout Catholic, but otherwise very funny. :)
Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-28 05:29 pm (UTC)Thank you very much for explaining, those were definitely too subtle for me resp. I wouldn't know the car bumper sticker.
I was raised in the GDR, I am an Atheist ;)
Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-28 06:12 pm (UTC)As a humble and grateful Christian, because God has proved himself to me over a lifetime of experiences, you ought to ask Him if He's really out there. The response might surprise you! :)
You have the BEST discussions! I want to come to Dresden to meet you and see your homeland. (It will be on my wish list.) It's a shame we didn't know to look each other up at Avalon. I think we'd have had a blast together.
BTW, I'm still thinking of places to take Jack and the Team on their leave as they tour my home turf.
Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-28 06:22 pm (UTC)I think believing has everything to do with how you grow up. What you get taught as a child. If you grow up like this, and everyone around you is the same, of course it comes very natural to you. But I just can't understand how someone can change something so important later in his life. I recently read an article about a man who fell in love with a Turkish woman living in Germany (and she with him). She stated outright that if he wanted to marry her, he needs to become a moslem. And so he did, just like that. How can you change from believing into one God to another in the split of a second? I don't get that.
And that's why I cannot see me changing something so importantly. It's too late for that. That does not mean that I still can live in a Christian way as I of course believe in treating others the way I want to be treated. This should be universal law, no matter which God.
I met a few people at Avalon, do you remember Su from Jackfic, the one who wrote all the shipping stories? Also I bumped into a girl from the MacGyver forum, by accident on the street. It led to the last wonderful evening in the pub, where I met Paya and we became friends.
If you ever make it over here, I'd love to show you around! In the meantime, yes, please show Jack and the team around! I'd really love to see those pictures.
Do you know this journal? She is more of an Atlantis fan and makes funny pictures with John and Rodney, here is the latest installment: http://sgamadison.livejournal.com/
Re: yay, another digression
Date: 2014-02-28 05:47 pm (UTC)I'm not quite sure what is cause and effect in recent generations not seeming to grow up. I read an article in the newspaper about this also. Previous generations already had married and several children at the age people from today still search for a good job, and go from one internship to the next. So how are they supposed to start a family, if they don't know where they will be in half a year? That must be very unsettling.
There seems also to be a new understanding that while a job is necessary and should be fulfilling, it is not the only thing in the world to live for and time spent with families and friends is just as important.
Oddly, I never wanted to be older than I actually was. I never had this "Once I turned this age I can do these things". I never was interested in going out or staying out late, so no trouble with my parents there ;)
no subject
Date: 2014-02-14 12:41 am (UTC)"baby" is used when the baby doesn't have a name yet, or it can be used in place of the name if you want to be cute-sy!
Normal usage in the UK of wife would be "my wife" unless the man is very old, or young but being sexist or 'ironically sexist', making a joke like "oh, I've left the wife in the kitchen". If you could reasonably substitute wife for a term like "ball and chain" in the sentence then "the wife" would be correct, otherwise you're best using "my wife".
Yay language :D
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Date: 2014-02-14 07:26 am (UTC)I stumbled first about "the wife" in an action figure forum where someone said that she should rather not find out how much money he spends on his figures. Maybe it was said in jest but if not it makes me rather sad, that he can't share what apparently is important for him. Naturally, everyone there assumed I was a boy as well ;)
I love discussions like that! They often expand into other territories, you can't have that with Tumblr, only here on LJ:
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Date: 2014-02-15 03:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-20 10:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-01 12:20 am (UTC)I never got to meet Su, but I specifically stayed in England for several weeks to meet some of my friends who I made music videos with. It was great fun to put faces with voices and IMs. There were so many people I wanted to meet and, oddly, I spent a whole day with Paya because of the group I got into by accident. I made wonderful friends from Ireland that day that I have stayed in touch with.
I had never seen SGAMadison's journal before. Her action figure photos are really good. I love the one shot from behind Shep in which he's looking out into a focused, angry looking cloud. That is so creative!
I'm really going to do this. I'm going to get the camera and the guys out and start experimenting. I am!
As for your English, it is very, very good and has gotten even better over time. I have seen a big difference in it in your stories as you have progressed. German and English are inflected languages and are hard to learn, but there are similarities (like brillant/brilliant) since many of the root words are the same.
BTW, I'm working my way through John's videos. It took forever for me to figure out how to play them, but it's going well now. I wish RDA would do something like that every now and then, but he's so private. I'm fine with his wanting privacy, but I miss seeing him and I can't afford the conventions.
Again, great discussion!
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Date: 2014-03-16 03:02 pm (UTC)The reason you see an increasement in my English in my stories is that at first I wrote them in German and then translated them to English. I did have an American beta but still, if you try to translate a sentence as it is, it always will sound weird, no matter how hard she tried, and of course she didn't want to rewrite the whole thing, as it then would have not been my own story anymore. We discussed a few things, some I agreed on, others I refused to accept.
Later, I wrote my stories in English first (and sometimes translate them to German if necessary). That way the language flows so much better, you can hear their real voices etc.
I'm happy you love all the John videos! It's true, he shares so much, sometimes it is scary the things we know about him, but even he sometimes says to a question "that's private" and it gets accepted so he does not share everything. But also at the studio visits where we watched him recording the new CD, that was such an intimate experience, as you really saw all the emotions.